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RE: Reversing Lenz Project - unimmortal - 07-22-2024

If you want ferrite, get them waterjet cut. This is a throwback from the Joe Cell where Merlynn mentioned the same. Hot cutting creates polarisation spots.

Can't wait to see how this turns out, you're project is completely opposite to mine... but I'm always looking at what I can integrate together Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

Also, have you thought of putting a rotor for the ferrite slugs on the other side of the coils/mags to 'balance' the attractive forces? Or will that just sum and slow things down?


RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 07-22-2024

(07-22-2024, 07:51 PM)unimmortal Wrote: If you want ferrite, get them waterjet cut. This is a throwback from the Joe Cell where Merlynn mentioned the same. Hot cutting creates polarisation spots.

Can't wait to see how this turns out, you're project is completely opposite to mine... but I'm always looking at what I can integrate together Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

Also, have you thought of putting a rotor for the ferrite slugs on the other side of the coils/mags to 'balance' the attractive forces? Or will that just sum and slow things down?

You will probably have to draw me an illustration so I can understand..

Here are the rules of the game we are playing..

RULES:

  1. A GROWING magnetic field induces the SAME polarity in a coil
  2. A SHRINKING Field induces the OPPOSITE Polarity in the coil.

When a Generator's Magnet is APPROACHING, the field is GROWING..  So the Pickup Coil induces the SAME Polarity to prevent it from approaching the center of the coil

When a Generator's Magnet is LEAVING, the field is SHRINKING.  So the Pickup Coil induces the OPPOSITE polarity as the magnet to attract is back in.

This causes DRAG..

Now in this setup, we are reversing it..  The Rotor's magnetic field is at MAXIMUM before it reaches the coil and as it enters the coils, the field is SHRINKING on the way in..  The Rules dictate the coil will produce the OPPOSITE Polarity on a shrinking field- so the coil ATTRACTS the metal in. 

When the metal is in the center of the coil, the magnetic field of the metal is at ZERO.  Then the Magnetic field starts to INCREASE as it exits the coil..  The rules dictate GROWING FIELDS induce the SAME polarity, which repels the rotor out..

But here is the nuance...  My understanding leads me to believe we lose the gain resulting in equalization of Lenz, or No Lenz Drag..  The exact amount of helpful magnetism the rotor receives from the coil is equal to the increased resistance the rotor will incur entering and exiting over the permanent magnets.  

My understanding suggests there is ALWAYS a counter-balance force.  This is why I am unsuccessful at getting a metal pipe to spin under the influence of magnets.  Any time I create a Net Torque to create rotation, the metal which is being magnetized by the stator magnets creates an opposite torque against the desired rotation, thus balancing.

Think of a standard motor powering a generator.  Lets Say The Motor coils act to turn the motor shaft Clockwise. When we generate power, the pickup coils act to turn the shaft Counter-Clockwise.  So a standard motor powering a standard generator can NEVER produce more out than in, because the Input MUST be greater than the force of the Output trying to rotate the shaft in the opposite direction.

But all in all, I think I see a clear path to a LENZ FREE Generator and I think my first design was pretty damn close.  

So if we want to add more coils or magnets, they must be aligned exactly the same as the first ones.  It does not matter which side the magnets and coils are on, they can be on both sides of the rotor.  But what we can NOT do is place an opposite polarity magnet over another magnet.  Or else the field neutralizes in the metal..


RE: Reversing Lenz Project - unimmortal - 07-22-2024

Quote: It does not matter which side the magnets and coils are on, they can be on both sides of the rotor.

Exactly, if a rotor were on both sides, the lateral forces cancel and you'd double or mirror the flux path.


RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 07-22-2024

(07-22-2024, 09:23 PM)unimmortal Wrote:
Quote: It does not matter which side the magnets and coils are on, they can be on both sides of the rotor.

Exactly, if a rotor were on both sides, the lateral forces cancel and you'd double or mirror the flux path.

I don't quite get what you mean by the "lateral forces cancel".

YES I can place coils and magnets on both sides sandwiching the rotor metal.  But the magnets must be the same polarity towards each other and aligned .  

I see this increasing the magnetic field of the rotor metal and increasing the output from more magnetism + more coils.  But the rotor metal still must enter and exit over the magnets in the same time-space.


RE: Reversing Lenz Project - unimmortal - 07-22-2024

(07-22-2024, 09:41 PM)Jim Mac Wrote: I don't quite get what you mean by the "lateral forces cancel".

YES I can place coils and magnets on both sides sandwiching the rotor metal.  But the magnets must be the same polarity towards each other and aligned .  

By lateral I mean if you had ferrite rotors either side of the fixed mag/coil stator they would be equally attracted to the stator, and that would double your flux path without having to buy more mags/coils etc. The extra attraction may just sum and slow things down - so maybe a moot point.


RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 07-22-2024

(07-22-2024, 10:33 PM)unimmortal Wrote:
(07-22-2024, 09:41 PM)Jim Mac Wrote: I don't quite get what you mean by the "lateral forces cancel".

YES I can place coils and magnets on both sides sandwiching the rotor metal.  But the magnets must be the same polarity towards each other and aligned .  

By lateral I mean if you had ferrite rotors either side of the fixed mag/coil stator they would be equally attracted to the stator, and that would double your flux path without having to buy more mags/coils etc. The extra attraction may just sum and slow things down - so maybe a moot point.

I see.  Yes that would be possible and probably beneficial. But the coils I am using will not accommodate that.  The coils are on complete E-Cores so the bottoms are not suitable for magnets inducing the bottoms.

I guess I will first see how close the stock configuration gets us.  If the system truly has minimal Lenz, I think the power can be amplified outside the system.  But I need to generate decent wattage to work with.

I think this idea is the closest I have come yet.  Every other generator I ever made that produces multiple Amps always bogs down from Lenz Heavy..  But the first build produced about 3 amps and there was barely any slowdown.


RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 07-24-2024

The stator finished this morning.  Somewhere about 36 Hours  Straight Printing at High Speed..  It came out Excellent!

   

Everything lines up flush and everything fits like a glove!

Gonna glue the coils and print a first test rotor tonight,  hopefully ready for tomorrow's first Test!


RE: Reversing Lenz Project - AR_AH - 07-25-2024

Hi JIM,

I think ferrites will be decreasing a lot the magnetic flux of N52's , as they are not holding/conducting the field , more than 1/2 B (based on specification) , So , if your magnet have let say 1.5 Tesla B , then only 1/3 will reach to the coils, am I right?


RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 07-25-2024

(07-25-2024, 01:01 AM)AR_AH Wrote: Hi JIM,

I think ferrites will be decreasing a lot the magnetic flux of N52's , as they are not holding/conducting the field , more than 1/2 B (based on specification) , So , if your magnet have let say 1.5 Tesla B , then only 1/3 will reach to the coils, am I right?

I can not say you are wrong.  I honestly don't know the exact answer. But without doubt, the magnetic strength will indeed suffer considerably as compared to just spinning the magnets.

I guess we need to consider that magnetic strength is not the only factor  that affects output.  Rotational speed, coil design, gap spacing, eddy currents, flux leakage, coil spacing, uniform output wave, Coil count, core material- all play into the totality that will dictate output.

Even a small brushed motor with 2 ceramic arc magnets can output 20+ watts if spun quickly.  

But you are absolutely right, transferring magnetic flux to any medium will result in a weaker field than the source magnets. And there are advantages and disadvantages between different materials.  Steel should hold the field better but will have much more eddy currents and Cogging.

I am looking to balance the forces and obtain decent output where drawing more output current does not affect the input. Ferrite may not be the best choice.   But it should be tried and evaluated along with other materials to determine the best choice.

Thanks for raising this issue..


On the build front,  all is in place and ready.  Everything fit well..  I am finishing the first Rotor print in the upcoming hours then I can test the first rotor today to get some baseline numbers.  I will post when I got some results


RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 07-26-2024

I ended up printing 2 versions of the rotor.  So far no-good..  The magnets are pulling down on the ferrite with so much force it's ridiculous.