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+--- Thread: Reversing Lenz Project (/thread-159.html)
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - unimmortal - 07-29-2024
Are you able to balance the ferrite rotor between two mag/coil stator setups?
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - floor - 07-29-2024
@Jim Mac
Interesting stuff !
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 07-30-2024
(07-29-2024, 07:48 PM)unimmortal Wrote: Are you able to balance the ferrite rotor between two mag/coil stator setups?
Probably. But 4 more magnets is another $55 and designing that gets a lot trickier. I do have to continue on this tho, so I am evaluating other possibilities.
(07-29-2024, 09:35 PM)floor Wrote: @Jim Mac
Interesting stuff !
I was hoping you'd be back sooner than later.
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - dd_alf - 08-01-2024
Well, without to want to sound like a smart-a$$, but that is exactly why I went from side magnets (as in 90 deg to rotor disk) to radial alignment, where centrifugal force auto-centers the rotor. Now all you have to worry is the flux-mediators being not only pulled out by the magnets, but also be extreme centrifugal force at high RPM. (But that problems exists too with side arrangement.)
As I understand, you consider this a requirement because of the field orientation. Still, from what I see, ferromagnetics provided, the field will make a circle, given there is an easy path. So in my arrangement, the flux vector of the PM clearly goes in opposite direction through the coil that's in parallel to it.
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 08-01-2024
(08-01-2024, 05:14 AM)dd_alf Wrote: Well, without to want to sound like a smart-a$$, but that is exactly why I went from side magnets (as in 90 deg to rotor disk) to radial alignment, where centrifugal force auto-centers the rotor. Now all you have to worry is the flux-mediators being not only pulled out by the magnets, but also be extreme centrifugal force at high RPM. (But that problems exists too with side arrangement.)
As I understand, you consider this a requirement because of the field orientation. Still, from what I see, ferromagnetics provided, the field will make a circle, given there is an easy path. So in my arrangement, the flux vector of the PM clearly goes in opposite direction through the coil that's in parallel to it.
Hey Alf, glad you are here to discuss.
I agree that 90 degrees will alleviate the downward pressure on the rotor and will be more stable. And I also agree the orientation in that direction is also suitable.
Perhaps there was a misunderstanding in our previous communication. I will try to explain more clearly my position.
1. The magnets will magnetize the metal bridgeres.
2. The magnetic field of the output coil ALSO works to realign the magnetic domains of the ferrous bridgers.
So in all literal senses, the ferrous bridgers become temporary magnets whose magnetic strength and domains are always changing. So lets consider the bridgers are actual magnets for a moment.
When a North magnet is passing over a permanent north magnet (repelling) the repulsion only helps us when the bridger magnet is Past Top Dead Center. Only after that point will the repulsion assist rotation. But Before top dead center, a North Magnet still repels a North --- Slowing rotation over it. At high speeds we get an equalization where the repulsion on the way in is about equal to the repulsion on the way out, thus no gain / no loss.
Now if that same bridger was varying in magnetic intensity, this changes. If the bridger was Stronger North Before top dead center and Weaker North on exit, we now have a LOSS of momentum because there were more resistive forces than helpful forces.
So my whole theory in this motor design is this:
1. YES we receive a helpful force where the magnetic field from the induced coil ASSISTS the metal bridgers momentum.
2. BUT we also get an equal resistive force because the Coil's field also worked to vary the strength and alignment of the metal.
So on the approach, the coil pulls the metal rotor IN. BUT the metal's magnetic intensity changes from the coil's field and we get an equal resistive force that is trying to pull the bridger back into the first magnet which it already passed. So they equal out.
Same on the exit. The coil pushes the rotor out and away, but the bridger is NOT past top dead center of the exit magnet yet, so the bridger is repelling the exit magnet Before top dead center of the magnet with the added strength from the coil.
In the end, if all is aligned perfect, we should expect to neutralize Lenz drag. Any gain from the coils field is countered because the magnetic field from the coil affected the metal bridger which now has to pull away from the first magnet and enter the 2nd.
All in All, this is not bad at all. We can achieve full Lenz drag nullification which is certainly enough to create a situation where output can exceed input. But as we are seeing, losses are pretty extreme in the system. We have several problems we must get around like eddy currents, cogging, and centrifugal.
There is no pressure with anyone to agree with my view. It is good different people view it through different lenses. I believe we can both work on the concept with our own understandings and perspectives. We cover more ground this way
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 08-01-2024
SO lets try this...
I took a Clam-Shell core.
Tried to measure and hack the sides out so 1" cube Neo's fit in the walls
Now to print the casing with bearing holders. See if I can rotate a 2 pole ferrous rotor in there.. And of course re-wind the coils
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - dd_alf - 08-02-2024
For that reason I advise the shape of these 2 interactors, core and bridge, to be slightly convex at their dead center, so the field is constantly decreasing during approximation, and then constantly increasing during departure. Of course, there is always the part where you need to bring the bridge in place, so in my design that's from over the magnet to between magnet and coil, and that part has traditional lenz drag. However, the idea was to use a diode to prevent any current flow during this part of the cycle, so there cannot be a 2ndary field at all. Yet, if all the rest of the cycle has reversed lenz drag as well as opposite electrical polarity (which it should have in my design) then the diode allows now current flow for a 2ndary field and thus the average lenz effect should be accelerating.
But I think the problem lies in the permeability of the bridges and the 2 airgaps. So I would advise: extremely precise and rigid construction to allow for small airgaps, an also: use special materials for the bridges that have extreme permeability, like Metglass, so the length of the bridge plays less of a significant role.
Also keep in mind, voltage and power rise exponentially with speed, and linked to that is the ratio of reverse_lenz_impact versus overall_losses, so it could be that at a certain equilibrium speed it kicks in and does an acceleration jump. I have that actually on video somewhere, with a 2017 prototype.
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 08-02-2024
(08-02-2024, 03:08 AM)dd_alf Wrote: For that reason I advise the shape of these 2 interactors, core and bridge, to be slightly convex at their dead center, so the field is constantly decreasing during approximation, and then constantly increasing during departure. Of course, there is always the part where you need to bring the bridge in place, so in my design that's from over the magnet to between magnet and coil, and that part has traditional lenz drag. However, the idea was to use a diode to prevent any current flow during this part of the cycle, so there cannot be a 2ndary field at all. Yet, if all the rest of the cycle has reversed lenz drag as well as opposite electrical polarity (which it should have in my design) then the diode allows now current flow for a 2ndary field and thus the average lenz effect should be accelerating.
But I think the problem lies in the permeability of the bridges and the 2 airgaps. So I would advise: extremely precise and rigid construction to allow for small airgaps, an also: use special materials for the bridges that have extreme permeability, like Metglass, so the length of the bridge plays less of a significant role.
Also keep in mind, voltage and power rise exponentially with speed, and linked to that is the ratio of reverse_lenz_impact versus overall_losses, so it could be that at a certain equilibrium speed it kicks in and does an acceleration jump. I have that actually on video somewhere, with a 2017 prototype.
There seems to still be a misunderstanding between what I am trying to explain and how it is being understood.
regardless of diodes and other, there are 2 magnetic fields affecting the rotor- even when the current is doing in 1 direction.
1. The Coil produces a magnetic field that affects the rotor.
2. The Rotor has to ENTER into the field of the Permanent Magnets.
It is my opinion that any gain the rotor acquires from the coil's magnetic field is given back or neutralized as it next has to pass over the magnet.
Anyway, I hope I am wrong. But even if I am right, this still means we have a full elimination of Lenz Drag, which should make it theoretically possible to reach greater than COP 1.
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 08-02-2024
So project update..
I re-wound the stator with 21 Ga. The original stator had 107 turns of thicker wire on each pole. After re-wind I now have 220 turns on each pole. This should increase my voltage output but the added resistance will affect the current a bit.
The end bearing plates / mounts are done printing and the stability brackets will be done soon. Once done, I can start getting the magnets in there and trying to line everything up.
The success of this will hinge on not only this stator design, but the rotor design as well. I will have to probably print several rotors to find a good balance with magnetic permeability and cogging.
RE: Reversing Lenz Project - Jim Mac - 08-02-2024
Looking Good!
Neo's Installed
Top View
Front View With End Plates On
Time to start working on the rotor!