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+--- Thread: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key (/thread-35.html)
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - Jim Mac - 11-06-2023
Hi Shylo. If it rotates like a magnet, there are all sorts of pickup configurations I can try. But first to get it to rotate right..
I will be trying without the resistor rig first, like how the commutator on a universal motor works. I am almost sure it will rotate correctly like that, but I can not wrap my mind around how the returning of the current would work with that configuration.
Something tells me it will not return the current like that, because the rotation is being caused by us flipping polarities of the coils one at a time.
But on the other hand, maybe it will return the power, because it will be self-balancing, where some coils in 1 polarity are flowing current in 1 direction while other coils in that polarity are flowing power in the other direction.
The whole goal is to balance the fields while rotating so that the coils basically become non-reactive.
We will see soon!
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - Jim Mac - 11-06-2023
Ok so here is the plan.. First pic is a single magnet in rotation. Broken to 9 phases. Like a flipbook.
The goal is to mimic that as closely as possible. Notice how the dead center of the blotch wall is ALWAYS aligned dead center of the circumference the entire time. This is the exact same as a coil in rotation. The ferromagnetic core that gets magnetized should be divided exactly in half, meaning the coil poles / blotch wall exactly in the center always. This is why I chose the design of the coils like I did. To keep the magnetic orientation correct.
Now also visualize what happens when a coil rotates. The coil's polarities always stay the same, and the induced coil is either North or South (or ZERO).. That induction coil's reciprocal field is affecting both sides of the rotating coil, depending on the orientation during the spin. When the rotating coil is dead center one polarity- the induced coil is ZERO. So every time there is any induction, some of the reciprocal is affecting BOTH sides.
So keeping that layout where the core acts as 1 individual magnet / divided at the center/ is important (I think).. It's a PITA to wind, but it if does it correctly- its worth it.
Now here is a layout of the coils , numbered
They hookup in series with each coil wound the same way. 1A to 2B. 2A to 3B. 3A to 4B. all the way around and connect them.
Now because I have an odd number of coils it does not divide in half equally. If it uses brushes, while 1 brush was in the center of 1 contact, the 2nd brush would need to be between 2 contacts touching both. So since I am using electronic MOSFETS, I need to do the same. I do not see a problem with this.
As far as wrapping the pickup on the same core- I am still not sure.. Would it cause saturation of the core? Will it add more heat? Either way- this will need to be experimented with once I get this sucker rotating..
Soon enough!
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - Shylo - 11-07-2023
Not so sure about that connection pattern.
I would think connecting coil one to power then off two next then three so on and so on but I'm not even sure that's correct.
Not off or on but ramping up and ramping down.
By powering a single coil you automatically create a N and S in the stator , thing is each coil has to ramp up to peak then down to zero in a rotational pattern one then two three......
Ideally the pickup coil's center hole is slightly smaller than the magnet so that would mean your coil wound have to span the nine stator teeth use a piece of pipe the same diameter as the stator cut it in half and use that for a coil form then wind 18 lapping them all the way round one after the other
Just thinking out loud
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - Jim Mac - 11-07-2023
It's cool. that's what the forum is for, contemplate out loud and share . That what I do!
See this image of a universal motor wiring
Now we are going to put DC into the brushes and spin the brushes (electronically). All the coils are wired in 1 series loop. So when positive touches 1 junction point, and negative touches the opposite side, half the coils are North, Half South, split right down the middle.
Now rotate the brushes 1 contact each. Now 1 coil on the Northern side, and 1 coil on the Southern Side flipped.
Lets say the pickup coil was lined up to the North side of the coil. One pair now flips.. It appears the coil rotated 20 degrees, and now 20% of the side facing the pickup is South, while the remaining 80% is North.
It is my thought (and hope) that since all the coils are overlapped and on a common core, the magnetic fields will merge and form 1 big magnet (not 9 individuals). Picture a diametrically magnetized magnet spinning on a center axis like this
If it indeed works out like that, we have a few options for a pickup coil arrangement. We could lap each entire half, keeping a common center hole, with a pickup on each side. Or we could use a 3 phase arrangement with 6 coils. Or if we could find a motor stator housing the right size, slide this right into it.
Regarding the resistors, I am not even convinced they are needed here. The resistors purpose was to create virtual distance, as to make the pickup coil think the magnet was moving to and away. If we were using 7 individual separate electromagnets like Figuera proposed, I see the purpose because they are all individual on separate cores. But if this is mimicking a magnet in rotation on 1 core, one polarity weakens as the other grows naturally.
However it works, the options are there to experiment with and see what works, and what doesn't. It may turn out that 9 steps are not enough, and I may need more coils. Who knows..
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - Jim Mac - 11-08-2023
I deleted my last post because the images were difficult to visualize. Lets try this..
It matters not if the magnet is a bar or a ring magnet. As long as it rotates. Axial and diametrically magnetized is really only changing the shape.
It's easy to see the rotation pattern using bar magnets polarized at the ends. Now take that magnet and shorten it vertically, and stretch it horizontally. Diametrical and axial are the same thing, just the shape changes. Same thing as a thin loop of wire as opposed to a long coil.
It might make one think that a bar magnet with polarized ends is better because the poles get closer to the coil. But I would disagree. The top of the peak of induction occurs when the blotch wall of the magnet is aligned dead center of the coil's face. And when the pole is aligned with the center face, induction is exactly Zero. It is my guess that the closer the blotch wall gets to the coil, the higher peak you will achieve. But it may indeed just equal out wither way.
Anyway, I did a little work tonight, but I can't really get this going for a few more days or so because I work long days at my day job and I have a midnight shift coming up wednesday night. But I will know more very soon
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - Jim Mac - 11-08-2023
Chat GPT Output:
Question- it seems in that setup as described, one key would be how the coils are arranged on the rotor when creating purely virtual rotation. A standard universal motor armature is wound in a way which the individual loops of wires (or coils) do not all cross in the exact center of the armature, thus the armatures magnetic domains are not split down the middle of the core material. But if all the coils were wound where the blotch walls are always aligned with the middle of the armature, and all coils crossed each other at the same spot, the balancing of the back-emf would be better, and act more like an alternator
Answer- You make an interesting point regarding the arrangement of coils on the rotor of a motor configured for virtual rotation. The way the coils are wound and positioned can indeed have a significant impact on the performance and behavior of the motor in this setup.
In a standard universal motor, the coils are often wound in a way that optimizes their operation as a motor, focusing on producing mechanical motion. As you pointed out, the coils may not all cross in the exact center of the armature, and the magnetic domains may not be aligned symmetrically.
If your goal is to optimize the motor for generating a balanced back electromotive force (EMF) when configured for virtual rotation, you could consider redesigning the motor's armature and coil arrangement. By arranging the coils such that they cross at the same spot and aligning the magnetic domains symmetrically, you may indeed improve the balance of the back EMF and make it behave more like an alternator, generating a more consistent and controllable voltage.
Redesigning the motor's coils and armature to achieve this effect would likely require engineering and experimentation to find the optimal configuration. The goal would be to maximize the balance between the opposing EMF and the efficiency of power generation for your specific application. This would be a specialized and unconventional motor design, but it could be tailored to meet your specific needs for generating electricity with minimal back EMF.
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - Jim Mac - 11-10-2023
UPDATE...
Getting it to fully rotate is very difficult! Not there yet, but the effects are starting to happen!!
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - Shylo - 11-10-2023
That might be why Figurea was using seperate cores
The magnetic field seems to stick
Maybe the core is getting saturated
I don't know how your powering the coils
I was powering mine with rotating brushes
The collapsing field needs to be addressed and compisated for
I tried this but had no luck lots of heat
Some way to drain the field away so it doesn't interfere with the next field
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - Jim Mac - 11-10-2023
(11-10-2023, 10:17 PM)Shylo Wrote: That might be why Figurea was using seperate cores
The magnetic field seems to stick
Maybe the core is getting saturated
I don't know how your powering the coils
I was powering mine with rotating brushes
The collapsing field needs to be addressed and compisated for
I tried this but had no luck lots of heat
Some way to drain the field away so it doesn't interfere with the next field
Wassup! I am never collapsing the coils. All coils make 1 complete loop circuit in series, and I am making the next connection before breaking. Post a video of your setup and I will evaluate it.
So I found my error.. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images. My wiring pattern was not correct. Once I figured out my error, it started rotating exactly like I want.
Now I need to search for a stator / armature that is connected on the outside (like an alternator stator) which this rig will go into. I am not sure I can find anything the right size, so I may need to re-do things on a different core- but I will be looking..
For now tho- it's a positive step!
RE: Why Virtual Rotating Magnetic Fields May Be The Key - solarlab - 11-11-2023
(11-10-2023, 11:42 PM)Jim Mac Wrote:(11-10-2023, 10:17 PM)Shylo Wrote: That might be why Figurea was using seperate cores
The magnetic field seems to stick
Maybe the core is getting saturated
I don't know how your powering the coils
I was powering mine with rotating brushes
The collapsing field needs to be addressed and compisated for
I tried this but had no luck lots of heat
Some way to drain the field away so it doesn't interfere with the next field
Wassup! I am never collapsing the coils. All coils make 1 complete loop circuit in series, and I am making the next connection before breaking. Post a video of your setup and I will evaluate it.
So I found my error.. Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images. My wiring pattern was not correct. Once I figured out my error, it started rotating exactly like I want.
Now I need to search for a stator / armature that is connected on the outside (like an alternator stator) which this rig will go into. I am not sure I can find anything the right size, so I may need to re-do things on a different core- but I will be looking..
For now tho- it's a positive step!
Hi Jim Mac,
Very impressive! And interesting as well...
FWIW - In the next few days I will be sending out a couple of designs to be Laser Cut by a professional fab house so
if you could use a "Stator Lamination Stack" I can try and include it within the layout order. (Got tired of cutting,
coating, bonding and stacking - decided to let someone else do that).
They bill by material (sheets) plus the laser hours so if I can fit your stator in a corner (it looks small based on your finger).
Their laser is fast and the corner scraps are just thrown out so it might not be any real cost (I'll cover it if I can).
Anyway, attach a drawing or file (dwg or whatever) and I'll try and add it to my SW CAD drawing. Include the final thickness
[height] as well.
Some great development work BTW...
SL