Virtually Rotating 4 Overlapping coils

[Jim Mac]

Now that you have the circuit working.
Can you please post a circuit diagram, it will make your system so much easier to understand.
Thanks.. Tom

Sure-  but it's subject to change.  Here is a sloppy paint drawing..  Notice the function generator's leads are isolated to prevent comments telling me the amplifiers are getting ground from them.

You can disregard the transformers output wiring.  I am not convinced that is correct...

   

[Jim Mac]

Wow..  That was surprising...  I disconnected the 2 amplifiers grounds from each other and the circuit works the exact same!  They don't need ground wires at all!..

I measured current between them and get NOTHING, no AC or DC...

I have a working theory how these amps can work with no grounds...  But I will have to verify...

[unimmortal]

Jim, I've just been reading over your last few threads to better understand the rotating fields.

Firstly I want to say congrats - you've built a controllable magnet with coils... I'm not sure people realise the magnitude of this.

Anyhow, contentiously I am going to assert that what you've created is the smooth oscillation of field change, but it does not rotate.

If you were to overlay this wiring setup another 3 times, all at 22.5°, then you will have rotation, and smooth oscillation, as the stator will actually be sensing the field rotation. This is the motion that creates CEMF, the field moving across the outputs coils.

But my head is spinning just trying to work out what that would look like.

[Jim Mac]

Yo Uni,  if you review the first few posts of this thread, that build was absolutely rotating in the areas of the overlaps.  Maybe this will next statement will help visualize it..

Say we are using multiple coils to create virtual rotation past 1 output coil,  You would need to view the phase of the output compared to the phase of the coil aligned dead center with the pickup coil.  If you can manage to get the output phase 90 degrees out of phase with the input phase powering the coil at dead center (with resistive load), you ARE inducing like real rotation.  

Because in a standard generator, the output phase lags the rotor by 90 degrees.  Meaning the output sinewave is exactly ZERO when a passing magnet aligns center to a coil face.  

That 4 transformer setup is much more nuanced..  But I believe it's violating the known theories of induction.  The open circuit voltage X shorted current watts (max power potential) well surpasses the input.  Which is not supposed to happen in induction circuits.

[Jim Mac]

While I am trying other ideas, I wanted to fill this form I made a little while ago..

I found it difficult to find a commercially available 4 pole outer stator..  And I wanted one to tinker with..

So here it is..  I filled it with dry iron powder then poured a 1/4" resin epoxy top to seal it in.  

   

I can try virtually rotating it several ways, including the Figuera rig and 2 phase AC.  

So when I get around to winding it up and trying stuff, I'll come back to this..

[Jim Mac]

It's coming along..  The epoxy resin dried fine, and I started to wind.  Almost done with 2 coils
It's hard on your fingers to wind this, But Ill be done by tonight with this part..

   

I next filled and poured the output coil form.  It's setting now

Obviously a single output coil will be wound on this..

   


And here is a model of the alignment I will use.  You can think about how mutual induction back to the primary would work with 2 phases 90 degrees shifted as the driver.

   

Now my thoughts on the "Big Problem" I usually run into on designs similar to this..  How to deal with the "Self Induction" and impedance rise:  That is IF I eliminate mutual induction back to the primary like I think it will.  

The answer might be simpler than I originally thought..  I will try using an AC capacitor in parallel with each driver phase.  This should optimize the power factor and adjust for the lagging current we get when we power an inductor.  

So when the coils are complete later tonight, I will finally get to use my inductance meter for something!  Sizing the caps..

[Jim Mac]

Not too shabby..  The expected mH range is between 1-5 mH per coil of these specs.  I landed at 4.035 mH Each coil..  2 coils in series gives me slightly over 8mH..  Means my iron powder cores are doing OK...

I then measured a new Alternator rotor coil.  It came back at 11.4 mH..  Meaning my home-made setup rotor isn't too far off from a real Alternator rotor.   Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

I powered 1 coil with DC and held a magnet in there.  The field is decent - all things considered....

2 more HELL-COILS to wind tonight   Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

[Jim Mac]

First output stator has been built and attempted..   Results are....

BOGUS   Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

Either alignment resulted in crappy output..

   

   

For the magnetic field strength I have in the rotor, I am WAY WAY under expectations..

As you see, I made the output coil poles (center) almost 180 degrees around.  I think this is killing the induction..

Next attempt printing now..  I will have to pour the core again and wind it, so it will take a day or two between attempts..  

[Jim Mac]

I've long thought that 4 phase is needed, NOT 2 phase.  0 and 90 is not enough.  I initially thought all we need to do is flip 0 and 90 to get 180 and 270, But I was wrong. This is not "True" 4 phase.  It's simply 2 phase with an inverted phase!  Similar to how residential "2 Phase" is not true 2 phase at all! Residential 2 phase is just 1 phase with a mirror phase. 

To understand my point-  3 phase is TRUE..  Meaning you can have 3 coils OR 6 coils to get 3 phase..  Bust because you add the flipped pair resulting in 6 coils, does NOT make it 6 phase!  it's still 3 phase.. 

To make 4 phase, we need a 4 channel function generator, which I am not even sure if they exist.  So to test this,  step 1 is to make a small 4-phase generator..  The generator can be small and does not need real output,  just a volt or two and enough current to send it's signal into amplifiers.  As stated, the generator's output will feel 4 amplifier channels, thus outputting true 4-Phase..

   

First- I split a Ring Magnet to get a N/S alignment that covers nearly the entire rotor. To get a 4 phase generator to output true sinewaves, one magnetic pole must be influencing 4 coils at any given time. We can't simply make a rotor with a N and S spaced magnet, it leaves too wide of a gap, and the output will result in a collapsed peak as it bridges the space.  Exactly what we do not want.

Then I printed the 8-coil stator, giving me 4 coils per magnetic polarity = 4 True Phases.

As log as I can get somewhere between 0.5 to 2V output per phase, it will be enough to direct the amplifier's signal input.  


WhY I say this:   Rotation is a completed circle.  2 Phase (0 and 90) gives you only 1/2 the rotational circle. I believe with 0/90, the coils are in the right phases to work as a generator 1/2 the time,  but in the wrong alignment the other half of the time- Resulting in passive induction.  SO I want to experiment with true 4-phase to see if it makes a difference.

[Jim Mac]

Build failed..  Ring magnet had an imperfection-  a magnetic bump of the opposite polarity on the face that didn't show in full force till after it was cut.  Taking a magnet in hand, it attracts to 1 half the ring magnet till a certain spot where it repels.  This affected the sinewave..

So I am trying again a little differently..  Getting 4 full sinewaves shifted 45 degrees each is a little finnicky.