ORION but with Magnets?

[Jim Mac]

The idea of ORION (https://www.mooker.com/showthread.php?tid=322) was to create a rotating magnetic field that rotates opposite direction as the armature itself was rotating.  And It turned out that Lenz Drag was able to be utilized and ended up spinning the generator, BUT output was poor and not able to be looped as of yet..

I have been thinking of ways to improve this, but have not attempted anything yet because of the complexity involved.

Today I thought, what if I can make a rotating permanent magnet rotor that accomplishes the same thing..  Where the output coil senses a rotating field that is rotating CCW as the physical magnet rotor is rotating CW.  

It has already been proven Lenz can be used to cause continuous rotation while inducing an output coil.  Now if we can repeat this using permanent magnets, we would have a machine that rotates itself while producing an output.

I have a thought on the design, but am not sure it will work.  I will be working on a presentation to consider and will update this thread accordingly.

[Jim Mac]

This is a severe brain twister..   Look at the rotor arrangement below..  The magnets are close enough to merge into 1 continuous field.

   

Choosing 1 stationary point of the stator perspective, we can see that the field should rotate opposite to the direction of the physical rotor mass, regardless which direction we rotate the rotor.

If it behaves like Orion with brushes, Lenz MAY exert it's force in the direction that assists rotation , Just as Orion did.

[Jim Mac]

If you are having a hard time visualizing it, I snapped a quick video that may help.

[ovun987]

If you are having a hard time visualizing it, I snapped a quick video that may help.

Totally makes sense, curious how/if it works in practice. Super smart thinking, Jim!

[truesearch]

Totally makes sense, curious how/if it works in practice. Super smart thinking, Jim!

Yeah, me too. I'm curious to see what real-life testing will show for this idea of Jim's.

[Jim Mac]

Thanks guys, I am also excited to see the outcome.

I am around 1/2 way done with the print, But I realized a miscalculation....

   

I know I need 2 magnetic rotations for every physical rotation.  Since 36 magnets are spaced 10 degrees, I figured I needed to skew each magnet 20 degrees progressively to end up with 1:1 rotation in opposite direction...

BUT Now I realize, placing the magnets around a round crimefree already accounted for 10 degrees in each magnet, so I only needed to skew the magnets 10 additional degrees each.  

This means I will end up with 2 magnetic rotations  for ever 1 rotation of the carrier.  (from the coil's viewpoint of 3-1)

This is still valid and worth continuing,  the magnetic field will just rotate quicker than the carrier. The downside is, it may display more ripple and not as smooth of a field.

BUT If I would have skewed each magnet 10 degrees, I would end up with my perfect 1:1 target.  I have just enough magnets to make 2 of these, so I plan to continue with the design.  If it is close with the 10 degree pitch, I can always re-print and duplicate with the 10 degree pitch, slower rotation but smoother field.

The

[nagual]

If I understand correctly, in the previous special commutation version, the direction of rotation of the magnetic field is opposite to the rotation of the rotor itself. However, it is not smooth; it jumps from one commutation segment to the next. This is equivalent to the magnetic field being generated ahead of the rotor and then pushing backward.

In contrast, this one rotates continuously, so the magnetic field turns smoothly. As a result, it is very likely that there will be a dead point.

[Jim Mac]

If I understand correctly, in the previous special commutation version, the direction of rotation of the magnetic field is opposite to the rotation of the rotor itself. However, it is not smooth; it jumps from one commutation segment to the next. This is equivalent to the magnetic field being generated ahead of the rotor and then pushing backward.

In contrast, this one rotates continuously, so the magnetic field turns smoothly. As a result, it is very likely that there will be a dead point.

I don't think we see it the same way. On both models, the field continually rotates opposite that of the physical rotor.  The physical magnet rotor can just do it much cleaner.  Which means we should only get helpful pushes when the output current is occurring.  By using multiple phase output, we guarantee the rotor always as some sort of helpful action at all times.

~~~~~~~

Update-  I built the first model and did some basic tests.  The results are promising!

I am convinced the field is rotating the opposite way as seen by the coils.  In the scope shot below, you can see the wave fighting itself.  The individual rotating magnets want to induce 1 way, BUT the unified merged field is over-riding it and forcing the field to rotate the opposite direction!

   

You can see on the bottom of the wave I have a misplaced magnet somewhere..  Not sure if it's a bad angle or a flipped magnet,  BUT I DO have a little glitch there.  I need to examine closely to find out what's causing this.  Never-The-Less, it is clear that it is rotating OPPOSITE..

I have not yet accomplished a self-runner.  I need to build this inside a proper stator to properly harness the energy and see what happens..  So that's my next step.

[Jim Mac]

After studying Hallbach Arrays, I see something rather interesting.  My design is basically a microstep hallbach array in a circular rotor pattern.

Hallbach arrays have a strong side and a weak side, and it appears the way I have it laid out, the weak side is on the outside of the rotor.  If I switch the hallbach tilt direction to make the outside the strong side, then I switch the magnetic rotation direction which is No-Good..

But it appears if I keep my arrangement, BUT locate the stator on the inside of the rotor, it seems then the magnetic rotation direction is opposite of the carrier AND the output stator is on the strong side.

Study the image below and you may see what I am saying.

   

This partially makes the build easier..  Because we can use a standard cheap stator like pictured below and rotate the rotor array around it.

   

Summary- as I see it at the moment, to keep the correct rotational parameters, the magnetic honey-hole is in the center......

[Jim Mac]

I am going to explain more deeply here..

First- lets look at alternating polarity magnets..

   

A coil sees polarity flips, but the magnetic direction is not specified. They go abruptly from N to S to N to S.  So the rotational direction of the field is set by the direction the rotor is moving.

Now by placing 90 degree magnets between poles, we can set the magnetic direction during the polarity flips. As seen below, UP, Left, Down, Right results in Counter Clockwise Magnetic Rotation.  

   

This is a basic hallbach array..  BUT hallbach arrays concentrate the majority of flux on 1 side as seen below.
  Follow the RED side from left magnet to right.  You will see the rotational direction (if viewed from Left to Right) rotate Counter the way we are looking at them in succession.  

   


Here is another view- with the strong and weak sides shown.  So you can see the rotational direction more clearly

   

OK now all these examples are course hallbach arrays, but they can be smoothed by making micro-steps like shown below.

   

When you work out the polarities on the above image, you will see the Strong Magnetic Side is INSIDE..  Outside has almost no flux as it's in cancelling arrangement.

Next, you also need to work out the magnetic rotational direction IF we rotated the array physically against a stationary stator coil.  You should be able to notice the magnetic rotational direction is OPPOSITE that of the physical rotation..  BUT my mistake was not seeing this clearly and designing it so my stator coils are on the weak magnetic outside!

So first thought is to simply flip the tilts around so the strong magnetic field is on the outside..  But when you do that, you will notice the magnetic rotational direction changes!  We end up with a strong side rotating past the coil in the same direction as the physical rotation-  which invokes drag again.

There is no way to achieve Opposite rotation while inducing on the Strong Outside!  There is only 1 option,  and that is to use the above configuration BUT the output stator MUST be on the inside.  That is the ONLY configuration which meets both paramaters:

1. Magnetic rotational direction OPPOSING the physical rotational Direction
2. Output coils on the STRONG magnetic Side.

Which means I have to use one of my existing stators like pictured, and rotate the micro-step hallbach array around it.

   

   


I have a feeling this has much deeper implications in regards to how armatures and motors are wound and operate. But regardless, this is how I must proceed.

Hope it's a little more clear