Help with Building an overunity device

[Excelsior]

yes, I agree that the neon not lighting is likely because there is not enough pulse width (or my neon is blown). if I use super capacitors, will they require conditioning or are they ready to use immediately? how long is too long to condition a lead-acid battery? the one i have, i have been running the circuit for a full day now and the battery voltage is still not above it's nominal 12v should I keep it running until it reaches 15 or 16?

neons blunt the pulse. Bedini charging can rejuvenate caps but assuming low esr I suspect it's not required. See Julian Perrys papers on Bedini charging for soc profiles.
I'd stay around 95% Soc. Hope it helps

[grant]

Update: my neons are sadly, burnt out, they don't light or even put any load on the circuit with the capacitor across the output. makes sense as I got them out of a printer we didn't need anymore. are they nessecary in the circuit to blunt the pulse or no? if they are is there a different component i could use instead (like maybe resister or capacitor or something)
for battery conditioning, I will try to get and keep the battery at 95% soc, but it will take quite a while to get it there, if I can't get it there at all I might just buy super caps instead.

[dgreen264]

According to one of Rick F's videos it takes about 10 full charge/discharge cycles before the effect starts to happen So it can be quite time consuming.
And he says to fully discharge them i.e. down to practically zero votls which you would never normally do. Apparently this is to empty out the positive energy so it can be refilled with the negative type energy. But this is a completely unconventional type of charging.

If the pulse width is in the microseconds range even if its above 100V the neon will proabably not strike, as it is not there for long enough.

The pulse is narrow because there is not enough energy in the inductor during the charge phase. This can be because..
i) The drive volts was switched off too early and the energy in the inductor is not high enough (E = 1/2LIsquared, but current takes time to build up)
ii) The coil's resistance is too high and this is limiting the total energy (=max current) that can be applied to the inductor.
iii) The inductance value is too low
iv) The supply volts sags when the current peaks, so in this case a large cap across the supply will help
Unfortunately with relays you don't really have any control over the frequency etc. Maybe try a different relay.

In a solid state circuit the neon would be necessary is to limit the volts across the transistor to stop it from being destroyed. For a relay circuit it makes the voltage a little bit safer by limiting it to about 100.
The only real reason for it I can see is protection of components, limiting voltage from a safety point of view, and a visual indicator that you have HV. A neon will have a small capacitance that will blunt the voltage risetime a bit. And when the neon lights that means you are wasting energy that is not going to the battery.

[grant]

I think it is because the inductance value is too low, it is a 12v 20A relay from amazon, very small (part number is SRA-12VDC-CL) and according to google it does not have an internal resistor or internal diode. it is visibly a very small relay, and when I touch across the coil (not very safe, i know) I don't feel anything.

---

seems risky but I will drain my battery to 0V, it was an old non-working battery anyway. I may also test the circuit on some nimh batteries since some people say those work well.

[Excelsior]

I think it is because the inductance value is too low, it is a 12v 20A relay from amazon, very small (part number is SRA-12VDC-CL) and according to google it does not have an internal resistor or internal diode. it is visibly a very small relay, and when I touch across the coil (not very safe, i know) I don't feel anything.

---

seems risky but I will drain my battery to 0V, it was an old non-working battery anyway. I may also test the circuit on some nimh batteries since some people say those work well.

Trial and error will teach you more than Rick ever can. Try an MOV
Mistakes are valuable lessons  Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register at the forum by clicking here to see images.

[grant]

when you say MOV i assume you mean metal oxide varistor right? how would this help me?
I just got some NiCad batteries (already at 0V) that I will try to condition with the circuit.

[dgreen264]

yes, I agree that the neon not lighting is likely because there is not enough pulse width, I tested it with two seperate neons and still no luck. if I use super capacitors, will they require conditioning or are they ready to use immediately?
Also how long is too long to condition a lead-acid battery? the one i have, i have been running the circuit for a full day now and the battery voltage is still not above it's nominal 12v, should I keep it running until it reaches ~15? (also sorry for a later reply)
actually I am going to test the neon with a 220uF cap across the output as i tested that earlier and managed to get to ~90V

Of course the obvious reason I missed is that the coil is surrounded by lumps of metal, which drain energy from the pulse by means of eddy currents!. Like a transformer with a short-circuit secondary.

---

Its probably worth building the 'cap dump' circuit as shown in Bearden's book Free energy generation. The negative or radiant energy is fed into a capacitor which gets charged and then a thyristor empties this into charging battery as a pulse.

The advantage of this circuit is that the capacitor performs the conversion from negative (radiant) to positive energy. And thus the output can charge a normal battery in the normal way, i.e. with conventional current. This removes the need to always condition the batteries, only the cap needs conditioning. Then you can swap batteries as and when.

Another problem with lead-acid batteries is sulphation where the plates can get coated in sulphate over time and this gradually degrades the performance, increasing their internal resistance and reducing the amouint of current you can get in and out.

The cap dump circuit helps greatly with this by constantly pulsing the battery with high peak currents. This literally blasts the lead sulphate off the plates. THe cct shows about 10uF charged upto a couple of hundred volts. Bedini was using lower voltages (twice battery volts) and then very large caps (100000uF and upwards). Probably the latter is a good strategy.

THe cap is emptied into battery when the thyristor fires. This can be driven by a 555 timer and opto-isolator, or simply a neon bulb from gate to cap+.
(Neon is for the higher voltage version). I've found that using a neon the thyristor can be quite fussy and sometimes will fire regularly and can hear it ticking, but other times it will just sit there with the neon glowing but not firing the thyristor!

One thing to be wary of with radiant energy charging capacitors is that once they become conditioned, they will self-charge even when disconnected!
So a high power voltage clamp is a wise and necessary move, so that when you are not using the energy it is dissipated somewhere. Otherwise how do you stop it?!?

[Excelsior]

yes, I agree that the neon not lighting is likely because there is not enough pulse width, I tested it with two seperate neons and still no luck. if I use super capacitors, will they require conditioning or are they ready to use immediately?
Also how long is too long to condition a lead-acid battery? the one i have, i have been running the circuit for a full day now and the battery voltage is still not above it's nominal 12v, should I keep it running until it reaches ~15? (also sorry for a later reply)
actually I am going to test the neon with a 220uF cap across the output as i tested that earlier and managed to get to ~90V

Of course the obvious reason I missed is that the coil is surrounded by lumps of metal, which drain energy from the pulse by means of eddy currents!. Like a transformer with a short-circuit secondary.

---

Its probably worth building the 'cap dump' circuit as shown in Bearden's book Free energy generation. The negative or radiant energy is fed into a capacitor which gets charged and then a thyristor empties this into charging battery as a pulse.

The advantage of this circuit is that the capacitor performs the conversion from negative (radiant) to positive energy. And thus the output can charge a normal battery in the normal way, i.e. with conventional current. This removes the need to always condition the batteries, only the cap needs conditioning. Then you can swap batteries as and when.

Another problem with lead-acid batteries is sulphation where the plates can get coated in sulphate over time and this gradually degrades the performance, increasing their internal resistance and reducing the amouint of current you can get in and out.

The cap dump circuit helps greatly with this by constantly pulsing the battery with high peak currents. This literally blasts the lead sulphate off the plates. THe cct shows about 10uF charged upto a couple of hundred volts. Bedini was using lower voltages (twice battery volts) and then very large caps (100000uF and upwards). Probably the latter is a good strategy.

THe cap is emptied into battery when the thyristor fires. This can be driven by a 555 timer and opto-isolator, or simply a neon bulb from gate to cap+.
(Neon is for the higher voltage version). I've found that using a neon the thyristor can be quite fussy and sometimes will fire regularly and can hear it ticking, but other times it will just sit there with the neon glowing but not firing the thyristor!

One thing to be wary of with radiant energy charging capacitors is that once they become conditioned, they will self-charge even when disconnected!
So a high power voltage clamp is a wise and necessary move, so that when you are not using the energy it is dissipated somewhere. Otherwise how do you stop it?!?

Overvoltage protection module. (premade relay dump)
MOV > Neon for clamping pulses (better control)

[grant]

I don't have any MOVs so I will just use the neon and I also don't have any thyristors, is it worth buying some or just use a MOSFET or BJT, (i have both)? (but I will check my random circuit boards and see if there is any MOVs/thyristors.)
or I could use 555 timer + opto-isolator

how many cycles does it take to condition a capacitor?
of course I can see if they are conditioned based on whether or not they self charge.

[dgreen264]

MOSFETs are more difficult to drive in that situation.

You have to limit the gate to 20V otherwise it will blow the mosfet. This is not strightforward when the voltage is changing constantly.

Plus, large mosfets have high gate capacitance so they need a gate driver chip to turn them on or some other arrangement so that they switch quickly.
If they switch too slow , they will dissipate lots of power.

So all in all I'd say use a thyristor. They are robust, easy to drive and can take very high peak currents.

BJTs are a possibility but probably won't be as good at taking the high peak currents.
Thyristors are latching and can't be turned off once triggered so will discharge the caps down to battery volts.