The Equalization Paradox....

[Jim Mac]

There is a paradox that no AI can answer without contradicting itself, which goes in a circle until the AI admits it can not figure it out because it violates known Electrical Laws in every possible attempt to figure it out.  And I believe also that there is no other answer besides that the "Laws" have exceptions..  Or that Equalization really does not occur between 2 sources.

It is known when 2 storage devices, whether batteries or capacitors', have the same potential difference, but different voltages stored in the cells, the batteries "equalize" when placed in parallel..

See this image as an example.  Both have 24V difference in potential. but the individual cell values mismatch.  

   

28V will send to 24v..
But 0V should not send to 4V..

So how does it balance?  It MUST break a known law if it does balance.  

The possibilities:

1.  Does current flow in the negative terminal from Low to High (Water Flowing Uphill) ??

2.  Does current only flow between the positives and nothing from the negatives?

3.  Or does current flow out of the higher battery from BOTH positive and negative at the same time?

4. Or finally -  Equalization is a lie

Both terminals on the Higher battery will ALWAYS be higher than the second battery when we have 2 batteries that need to be equalized.  So when equalization occurs, the "LOOP" must break at least 1 known law. Or equalization is a lie.

Feel free to explain and debate me..  But be specific in your response.  Vague replies telling me how it works without the details is worthless.

[floor]

I am not understanding your example.

What are the voltages of each battery when not connected to each other /
measured independently ?

Where in the circuit are the voltages being measured ?

[Jim Mac]

I am not understanding your example.

What are the voltages of each battery when not connected to each other /
measured independently ?

Where in the circuit are the voltages being measured ?

Both batteries are equally charged to 24V difference in potential separately. So they have the same voltage if measured between the positive and negative terminals of each battery separately.

But they are not equalized.  The cell voltage in the 2 negatives is not equal, nor the positives.  

The theory is, when we parallel them, the cells equalize slowly.

[kloakez]

How do you get the voltage offset on the first battery? Mainly the 4V pole? That is a potential difference between what parts exactly?

[Jim Mac]

How do you get the voltage offset on the first battery? Mainly the 4V pole? That is a potential difference between what parts exactly?

This is the potential measured between the 2 negatives of separate batteries, although it can not be measured. 

Dynamics of prior use in a circuit I suppose can dictate these voltages. I have had parallel circuits working off 1 supply where the current between grounds was greater than current entering the circuit from the source.

[floor]

A quote from Jim Mac
This is the potential measured between the 2 negatives of separate batteries, although it can not be measured.
The end of that quote.

When the connection between the negative terminals of the batteries is interrupted,
and instead a voltage meter is inserted into the circuit, (in place of that neg. to neg connection) ...

There may or may not, exist a measurable voltage between those neg. terminals.

If (while the volt meter is in circuit) a current is drawn from the plus and minus terminal of
one or the other of the batteries, the voltage between the two negative terminals may
increase significantly (as compared to that voltage difference when no current is drawn
from the circuit.

The difficulty ?... Voltage meters do not allow much / block current flow...
So instead....
A current flow could be measured between the two negative terminals while a current is
being drawn from the plus and minus terminals of one or the other of the batteries.
and also simultaneously...
A current flow could be measured between the two positive terminals while a current is
being drawn from the plus and minus terminals of one or the other of the batteries.

Kirchhoff's circuit laws , say that these two current values will be equal.

A current flow through a resistive load could be measured between the two
negative terminals while NO current is being drawn from the plus and minus
terminals of either of the batteries.
and also simultaneously...
A current flow through a resistive load could be measured between the two
positive terminals while NO current is being drawn from the plus and minus
terminals of either of the batteries.

Kirchhoff's circuit laws , say that these two current values will be equal.

Calculate the voltage based upon the current flow between the two batteries.
... ... ... ...
When current is being measures as the batteries in series (neg. to neg.) even though
there is a current flow that is being drawn from the two batteries (which is
across the two batteries as in parallel) .... Edit add.. if one of these current flows
is of a different value from the other, this can be used to determine the voltage present at that
position in the circuit. ... Edit ended here.

Measure the current through that same resistive load, when it is caused
by only one of the two batteries separately.

Measure the current through that same resistive load, when it is caused
by the other of the two batteries separately.

From these measurements and Ohm's law any voltages in the circuit can be
calculated / measured by inference

If left connected in parallel ( insert a length of time here) the batteries may equalize ?

[Jim Mac]

When the connection between the negative terminals of the batteries is interrupted,
and instead a voltage meter is inserted into the circuit, (in place of that neg. to neg connection) ...

There may or may not, exist a measurable voltage between those neg. terminals.

Hmm...  To get any reading, the positives must be connected together.  And I am pretty sure the voltage you will get between the negatives is the difference in potentials between the 2.  Not the single cell's voltage.

I joined a 6V and a 12V at the positives.  then multimeter between the negatives, and I get 6 volts, the exact same if I probe between the positives with the negatives connected. 

"If left connected in parallel ( insert a length of time here) the batteries may equalize ?"  

That's the question right there..  If the battery's individual cell voltages were different, but the difference in potential equal on both batteries, the way the numbers align suggests current has to flow from Low potential to High potential between 2 terminals.  OR they don't really "equalize" at all.

[floor]

Partial qoute From Jim Mac 1
Hmm... To get any reading, the positives must be connected together. And I am pretty sure the voltage you will get between the negatives is the difference in potentials between the 2. Not the single cell's voltage.
The end of that qoute 1

Any voltage measured between two batteries which are connected
as + to + and - to - will be the potential difference between them.

If the individual potentials of each battery (separately / not connected in parallel to
each other) is 24 volts, then one would reasonably expect there to be no potential
difference to be measurable between a - to - nor a + to |+ potential measurement.
... ... ...
Partial qoute From Jim Mac 2
That's the question right there.. If the battery's individual cell voltages were different, but the difference in potential equal on both batteries, the way the numbers align suggests current has to flow from Low potential to High potential between 2 terminals. OR they don't really "equalize" at all.
The end of that qoute 2

The voltage reading across a batteries + and - poles drops when a load is
placed across the + and - poles (parallel to the load).

The magnitude of the voltage drop depends upon (not only the battery's voltage
with out a load) but also the kind of / condition of the battery used,
and also
the amount of current flow through the load.

A battery / any battery can provided some (x) amount of current with out
much voltage drop, but the less current a given battery can (dead short) provide,
the less of a load needs to be placed across the + and - poles to cause a given
voltage drop across the battery poles while a current is flowing through a load
(parallel to the voltage meter).

There fore, two seemingly identical batteries, (both 24 volt) may not give the same voltage
reading across the load at a given load (separately), and even the when the
batteries are wired parallel to each other (and to the load).

---

See my just prior post.



A zero ohms resistance load, across a battery does not result in an
infinite current flow value.
In circuit analysis, any given battery is assumed to have / considered as / described as,
having its own internal resistance value. That value determines the maximum current
flow possible during a zero ohms value dead short.

[Jim Mac]

Ok but to the equalization question??  Not sure how the "load" part of this came into play, but the main question is,  will 2 batteries of the same potential "equalize" if connected in parallel with no load connected.

"If left connected in parallel ( insert a length of time here) ***With No Load-  the batteries may equalize ?"  

Assuming they both have the exact same difference in potential when measured from negative to positive, BUT the individual cell potential of the 2 negatives is not the same.

[floor]

Well, this is a thought experiment, as is also, the two capacitor paradox
and
to begin.
In the real world, no two batteries have perfectly the same voltage.
Especially when considered over some period of time.



Real world, the batteries will not balance or perhaps self balance or equalize
one another. Hence, battery maintenance processes become a necessity.