Tinman's Recent Claim- Discussion and Tinker

[floor]

I'm fairly certain that this process of developing the shield took the Tinman
(working at it off and on) some where around 5 years.

Thanks for sharing it Tinman.

[Jim Mac]

Thanks for sharing it Tinman.

Yea man!  All we needed was the catalyst to show it is possible.  Then the floodgates will open!

[PhaseChange]

I am very excited to see this thread and to see TinMan back at work on OUR. I am here thanks to seeing the (Chet K) OUR post that lists other forums to join as I am unfortunately not a member of that site. I was a member of the (overunity) site working in TinMan's thread to replicate his motor when the site was sadly shut down. So I am again thrilled to see his efforts revived. Jim Mac ain't no dummy so I just hope he doesn't get close enough to the answer that is scares TinMan away before he can do the reveal he has planned.

@Jim Mac, I'm not seeing much if any cogging in your (The Magnetic gears are turning) video. I would have thought there would be much more visible cogging. Does this method eliminate cogging that would be present if individual magnets were used instead of the field extending bolts?

I am glad to see you here.  

I certainly do not want to scare anyone away.  I believe the claim is real and am not questioning the legitimacy of it.  As I see it, Tinman has been answering some questions, posting video hints, and leaving us a bread trail. I will try not to bother him with my meandering questions, and I won't be an annoyance to him directly.  

Now to your question. That design wasn't totally correct.  I was building based on Tinman's pictures without any operational clue.  The bolts are magnetized, but pretty weak. They do respond to an outside magnet (both attraction and repulsion) but they may not be magnetized enough for bolt to affect bolt. 

But now a new outlook popped out of the woodwork.  This new outlook uses most the same parts and effects shown in Tinman's videos, but now answers vital operational questions..  For instance, why magnetize bolts instead of just using magnets directly?  I built it without quite understanding the point on why or how the machine could self-spin..  

I'll drop this hint..  Turns out, the magnetized bolts have a much more important purpose than just creating weak magnetic field.  The setup allows you to do something that can't be done with permanent magnets.  It attacks the very nexus of how virtually any motor works.  

There is a good chance I got it wrong again, so don't take anything I say to the bank.  The bench will reveal.

Thanks for sharing it Tinman.

Yea man!  All we needed was the catalyst to show it is possible.  Then the floodgates will open!

I have heard on the grape vine, that a second design, that is much easier to construct, is being talked about.
No need for the complicated gate anymore.

[Jim Mac]

I have heard on the grape vine, that a second design, that is much easier to construct, is being talked about.
No need for the complicated gate anymore.

Hope so,  if 1 way proved to work, there is surely other ways.  Feel free to post ideas.

So here is my latest update..  Using this arrangement

   

The lateral torque is not a problem with my design, the magnets are not too big and the print is dense and sturdy.  I am only using 1 magnet in each rotor for testing.

After tweaking, Almost all resistance is eliminated and I get repulsion when it leaves the gate. The shield magnet needed to be much further up past TDC than I anticipated.  

So it enters smoothly, hits a little pocket of helpful movement, then slightly more resistance. Then it leaves the gate and sends the rotors 1/2 way around from the kick..  With more magnets installed, it looks to have more "KICK" than resistance by a decent degree.

I still got a few pockets of some small lingering forces against me, and a few pockets of helpful force.   It's hard to tell what it will do until I add more magnets to the rotor.  But it looks promising.

[PhaseChange]

MagnaProp

I have heard on the grape vine, that a second design, that is much easier to construct, is being talked about.
No need for the complicated gate anymore.

Hope so,  if 1 way proved to work, there is surely other ways.  Feel free to post ideas.

So here is my latest update..  Using this arrangement



The lateral torque is not a problem with my design, the magnets are not too big and the print is dense and sturdy.  I am only using 1 magnet in each rotor for testing.

After tweaking, Almost all resistance is eliminated and I get repulsion when it leaves the gate. The shield magnet needed to be much further up past TDC than I anticipated.  

So it enters smoothly, hits a little pocket of helpful movement, then slightly more resistance. Then it leaves the gate and sends the rotors 1/2 way around from the kick..  With more magnets installed, it looks to have more "KICK" than resistance by a decent degree.

I still got a few pockets of some small lingering forces against me, and a few pockets of helpful force.   It's hard to tell what it will do until I add more magnets to the rotor.  But it looks promising.

Do you think the torque being created between the rotor magnets and the stator magnets, is a loss? I am referring to the left rotor wanting to be pulled up toward the top of the stator magnet, and the right rotor wanting to be pulled down toward the bottom of the stator magnet. This would be a torque that has to come from another part of the system, and in this case, i think from the energy in the rotation? -maybe. But if things are not tried, you never get to know if they work or not. I say keep up the good work. As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Jim Mac]

MagnaProp

I have heard on the grape vine, that a second design, that is much easier to construct, is being talked about.
No need for the complicated gate anymore.

Hope so,  if 1 way proved to work, there is surely other ways.  Feel free to post ideas.

So here is my latest update..  Using this arrangement



The lateral torque is not a problem with my design, the magnets are not too big and the print is dense and sturdy.  I am only using 1 magnet in each rotor for testing.

After tweaking, Almost all resistance is eliminated and I get repulsion when it leaves the gate. The shield magnet needed to be much further up past TDC than I anticipated.  

So it enters smoothly, hits a little pocket of helpful movement, then slightly more resistance. Then it leaves the gate and sends the rotors 1/2 way around from the kick..  With more magnets installed, it looks to have more "KICK" than resistance by a decent degree.

I still got a few pockets of some small lingering forces against me, and a few pockets of helpful force.   It's hard to tell what it will do until I add more magnets to the rotor.  But it looks promising.

Do you think the torque being created between the rotor magnets and the stator magnets, is a loss? I am referring to the left rotor wanting to be pulled up toward the top of the stator magnet, and the right rotor wanting to be pulled down toward the bottom of the stator magnet. This would be a torque that has to come from another part of the system, and in this case, i think from the energy in the rotation? -maybe. But if things are not tried, you never get to know if they work or not. I say keep up the good work. As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat

My first intuition tells me the lateral force on the gate magnet should be 90° perpendicular to the force of the rotation.

I cannot see a reason to suggest it would be helpful in any way at this time. In fact, a little hurtful if anything, by putting stress and unneeded friction on the bearings and what not.  

I also think the little bit of stress on the bearings is much more desirable than that force being leveraged against the rotation.

But you raise a good question. Could it be said that the lateral force which is trying to flip the gate, could that be equal to the amount of hindering force that is being eliminated from the rotation?

Truly mind perplexing.  My weekend starts tonight, so I have a fun few days ahead of me lol

[floor]

"Do you think the torque being created between the rotor magnets and the stator magnets, is a loss? I am referring to the left rotor wanting to be pulled up toward the top of the stator magnet, and the right rotor wanting to be pulled down toward the bottom of the stator magnet. This would be a torque that has to come from another part of the system, and in this case, i think from the energy in the rotation? -maybe. But if things are not tried, you never get to know if they work or not. I say keep up the good work. As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat."


No displacement = no energy expended
exception... friction increase.


More than one way to...

[Jim Mac]

More than one way to...

Your image works good up till top dead center. Then the problems come in.

The rotor magnets need to exit the gate when they separate so they can repel.

Using non-polarized ferromagnetic materials causes the departing magnets to attract right back in to the gate and draw the rotors back together.

[floor]

I hear you, but there are two major aspects to what I am
presenting here. Two distinct although related / simultaneous types of balancing
that 
can / need to
occur.

The range of the spaces between the magnets,
the magnet strengths
and
the shield thickness
when at top dead center
when
such that they will cause neutralization
can be do to the force balances
and
the gear actions, both combined
or
the neutralization can be created
without the gear action
at all.
The balancing point factors (spaces, strength, thickness)
with out the gears
are
Similar to but not necessarily the same as
the factors with / when / because of the gears.
When without gears is what  one is looking for
when at t.d.c..
Then.. the gears also matter.

---

When looking for the best compromise between these factors.
? Neutralized magnet repulsion, but not because of the gears
? Is the shield removable without / with minimum attraction
? How much repulsion remains (just passing T.D.C.) when the shield is gone.

How to proceed ?

1. The slide able magnet is move closer or farther until near neutral force position is obtained.
2. The fixed magnet is loosened and moved closer to or farther from the shield.
3. Step1 is repeated.
4. Step 2 is repeated.
5. A different thickness (more  or fewer layers) of shield is attempted.

When looking for the best compromise between these factors.
? Neutralized magnet repulsion, but not because of the gears
? Is the shield removable without / with minimum attraction
? How much repulsion remains (just passing T.D.C.) when the shield is gone.

[Jim Mac]

Floor-  OK so how do we deal with the fact that the magnets get closer and further (change distance)?  I don't get it..

The 2 ways my mind is letting in are:

1.  If the gate is only metal, it needs to be in a semi-circle shape that matches the rotor contour. So this way we eliminate the variable distance.

2.  If the magnet gate is used, it probably needs an angle adjuster to tweak.

I can not seem to get the magnet dialed in when straight.  So I will try to design and print something that gives me this adjustment.  Along with up / down / right / left